Hi David. I recently in a private text to you said that I didn’t think God was moved by the numbers of people praying for a certain thing. And I thought I would expand on that here. I am not at all referring to contemplative prayer where our prayers are intended to praise and know God better. But for prayers of intention, my simple-minded attitude is to acknowledge this mystery that God knows best in how he answers prayers. In my prayers asking for a particular outcome, I also make a point of adding, “Thy Will be done, of course. You know best.” In my statement above about God not being moved, I was thinking of the idea that if great numbers prayed for something against His Divine Will—no matter how many pray, that’s not going to change his mind. He knows best.
But I do think that our devout prayers of intention to God move him. This morning, for example, we all heard ambulances and firetrucks racing by our church, and our priest paused and had us all pray for a good outcome to whatever the responders were heading to. There is ample evidence in Sacred Scripture and Tradition that God not only hears our prayers, but that he encourages us to pray to him and he will act accordingly. The Book of Revelation (I’m too lazy to go find the chapter and verse) portrays the saints receiving the prayers from the just and presenting them to God. Another quote I often hear is that the “The prayers of a righteous man avails much.” To exorcise a particular demon, Christ instructed the Apostles (when they asked why they could not remove a demon from a possessed man) that certain demons required both prayers and fasting to remove them. (These are just a few at the top of my mind.)
God has designed it so we take an active part in his providence. We have free will and the future is not fixed. Our actions, good and bad, have effects—and so do our prayers—as long as we are asking for the right things. Our prayers in gatherings have a greater effect too, we are told. “Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there.” (Quoting from memory.)
What I do see as an issue is when people use, “I’ll pray for you,” as a substitute for actually helping another. If see my neighbor lying bleeding on the ground after falling off of a ladder, and all I do is go over and tell him I’m praying for him. I’m not doing much to help, to say the least. And I’ve done that in other ways. I’ve passed by broken-down vehicles and hoped and prayed they were “okay.” That wasn’t quite enough, and I knew it when I uttered my little prayer.
Thank you for your wise insights and kindness, Alec. I really appreciate it.
It's really this point you bring up in your last paragraph - of people saying "I'll pray for you" and then doing nothing practical help - that has most bothered me over the last year and a half with the PTSD. That has just happened so much, so often, and been so discouraging.
And as I mentioned a bit in the podcast - I think my negative experience in Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant Christianity has "traumatized" me a bit. Not to the same extent as what happened to me with the violence of the police, but it's similar. Just as I'm more cynical and a little fearful about police in general now, I have similar sort of disappointed feelings when it comes to more fundamentalist Christian attitudes toward prayer. I've just so often heard the justification, "I'm doing this because I prayed about it and it's what God wants me to do" that I'm a bit cynical about it. "No, that's what YOU want to do, or what a demonic spirit posing as God told you to do. Don't avoid responsibility for your decisions by trying to claim God told you to do it."
Yes, and you reminded me of that other point you mentioned in your podcast that I wanted to comment on but forgot. About the “I'm doing this because I prayed about it and it's what God wants me to do" that I'm a bit cynical about it. "No, that's what YOU want to do..” I couldn’t agree more with your disappointment over that. I find it disagreeable when someone asks me to accept what they say as truth and in effect, attempt to make me live in the little world they’ve created. They will make a statement of opinion as if it’s truth that cannot be debated. This can be especially disagreeable when religion is brought into it. So, because you say you prayed and God answered you, I must believe it to be true. At best, this is a private revelation to the person. I have no way of verifying it without more than their say so. The best I can really do is to say, hopefully without sarcasm, “good for you.”
I’ve often heard people discussing their interactions with God and how they were directed to follow this path or that. That’s never, ever happened to me. I say my prayers, asking for guidance and then make my decisions using my best judgment. I’ve never heard a voice saying to me, “Alec—do this.” This is not to say that no one gets this kind of direct guidance from God. It does happen. There are countless examples of this where we can see from evidence external to the person that communications came from God (e.g., Mary, St. Joseph, or saints throughout the ages.) But merely telling me that God told you to do this or that is simply not enough evidence for me to believe it to be true. I’m not required to do that. I might say that I am happy for them and that they should do what they believe to be true. That does not mean that I necessarily believe them. How can I?
Hi David. I recently in a private text to you said that I didn’t think God was moved by the numbers of people praying for a certain thing. And I thought I would expand on that here. I am not at all referring to contemplative prayer where our prayers are intended to praise and know God better. But for prayers of intention, my simple-minded attitude is to acknowledge this mystery that God knows best in how he answers prayers. In my prayers asking for a particular outcome, I also make a point of adding, “Thy Will be done, of course. You know best.” In my statement above about God not being moved, I was thinking of the idea that if great numbers prayed for something against His Divine Will—no matter how many pray, that’s not going to change his mind. He knows best.
But I do think that our devout prayers of intention to God move him. This morning, for example, we all heard ambulances and firetrucks racing by our church, and our priest paused and had us all pray for a good outcome to whatever the responders were heading to. There is ample evidence in Sacred Scripture and Tradition that God not only hears our prayers, but that he encourages us to pray to him and he will act accordingly. The Book of Revelation (I’m too lazy to go find the chapter and verse) portrays the saints receiving the prayers from the just and presenting them to God. Another quote I often hear is that the “The prayers of a righteous man avails much.” To exorcise a particular demon, Christ instructed the Apostles (when they asked why they could not remove a demon from a possessed man) that certain demons required both prayers and fasting to remove them. (These are just a few at the top of my mind.)
God has designed it so we take an active part in his providence. We have free will and the future is not fixed. Our actions, good and bad, have effects—and so do our prayers—as long as we are asking for the right things. Our prayers in gatherings have a greater effect too, we are told. “Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there.” (Quoting from memory.)
What I do see as an issue is when people use, “I’ll pray for you,” as a substitute for actually helping another. If see my neighbor lying bleeding on the ground after falling off of a ladder, and all I do is go over and tell him I’m praying for him. I’m not doing much to help, to say the least. And I’ve done that in other ways. I’ve passed by broken-down vehicles and hoped and prayed they were “okay.” That wasn’t quite enough, and I knew it when I uttered my little prayer.
Thank you for your wise insights and kindness, Alec. I really appreciate it.
It's really this point you bring up in your last paragraph - of people saying "I'll pray for you" and then doing nothing practical help - that has most bothered me over the last year and a half with the PTSD. That has just happened so much, so often, and been so discouraging.
And as I mentioned a bit in the podcast - I think my negative experience in Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant Christianity has "traumatized" me a bit. Not to the same extent as what happened to me with the violence of the police, but it's similar. Just as I'm more cynical and a little fearful about police in general now, I have similar sort of disappointed feelings when it comes to more fundamentalist Christian attitudes toward prayer. I've just so often heard the justification, "I'm doing this because I prayed about it and it's what God wants me to do" that I'm a bit cynical about it. "No, that's what YOU want to do, or what a demonic spirit posing as God told you to do. Don't avoid responsibility for your decisions by trying to claim God told you to do it."
Yes, and you reminded me of that other point you mentioned in your podcast that I wanted to comment on but forgot. About the “I'm doing this because I prayed about it and it's what God wants me to do" that I'm a bit cynical about it. "No, that's what YOU want to do..” I couldn’t agree more with your disappointment over that. I find it disagreeable when someone asks me to accept what they say as truth and in effect, attempt to make me live in the little world they’ve created. They will make a statement of opinion as if it’s truth that cannot be debated. This can be especially disagreeable when religion is brought into it. So, because you say you prayed and God answered you, I must believe it to be true. At best, this is a private revelation to the person. I have no way of verifying it without more than their say so. The best I can really do is to say, hopefully without sarcasm, “good for you.”
I’ve often heard people discussing their interactions with God and how they were directed to follow this path or that. That’s never, ever happened to me. I say my prayers, asking for guidance and then make my decisions using my best judgment. I’ve never heard a voice saying to me, “Alec—do this.” This is not to say that no one gets this kind of direct guidance from God. It does happen. There are countless examples of this where we can see from evidence external to the person that communications came from God (e.g., Mary, St. Joseph, or saints throughout the ages.) But merely telling me that God told you to do this or that is simply not enough evidence for me to believe it to be true. I’m not required to do that. I might say that I am happy for them and that they should do what they believe to be true. That does not mean that I necessarily believe them. How can I?