I doubt it would. But I’ll look at the evidence from both sides. I’m sure the defense and prosecutors will bring forth new evidence, new arguments that none of us have an inkling of. Also, I’ll be watching Dershowitz and Turley. Neither have been Trump supporters but both make the best cogent arguments on the law, even when I don’t always agree with them.
Wait a second, if Trump is convicted in one of these cases by a jury of his peers then you would still plan on voting for him? If he has to campaign from prison then you would still regard him as the very best man for you to vote for? Why? There are so many other potential candidates running. And as terrible as Joe Biden is, he's really not as bad as a man who would be convicted of something like leading a conspiracy to steal an election or who illegally stole classified documents?
I mean come on Fred, it's one thing to believe that the prosecutions are politically-motivated, but you're going to believe that the jurors looking at the evidence who convict him are all politically motivated too and that therefore everyone who likes Trump now should just keep liking and supporting him?
And you see, Fred, - that open-mindness I known so well you have from getting to know you over the years - that's why I don't see you as a real, authentic "Trump Supporter." I see you simply as a conservative choosing to vote for Trump at the moment for various ideological reasons. And that is something that we can have reasonable, friendly discussions and disagreements about. It's the close-minded hardcore people on both sides - yes, including the extreme left anti-Trump side also - that are the problem.
Reasonable people can still have reasonable discussions and remain friends and professional colleagues.
Hi David and Sally, I hope you are both safe and dry from the current storm hitting California. I just finished your your recent podcast and do find it baffling. I'm a big Trump supporter along with many family and friends and I did not recognize the caricature.
The projection of a tribal, simple-minded group of white people attracted to a criminal sounds silly from my own experience, reading and research. Tribalism--All for the tribe and screw everyone else--is a distinctly Democrat tradition, owing to the fact that the democrats are the party of American slavery and are as racist and skin conscious today as they were at the start of the Civil War.
The Democratic Party has a shameful history. The Republican Party historically were the better party. There used to be large contingents of liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats. Things change, political parties change.
The truth is that the Republicans have been on a downward trend ever since they abandoned reconstruction in the South in the late 1800s. Yet even then they were better than their opposition.
Political Parties are about forming coalitions and getting votes to win elections, they are not really about standing up for what is right or wrong. Politicians have to navigate that reality. I am not saying the Democrats are incapable of the same maneuvering to win elections but the Republican Party has quite frankly in recent years decided to go in a direction that is quite cowardly. They are trapped by Trump and his populism, his apparent criminality. It's quite frankly disgusting how many cowards there are in the Republican Party enabling Trump and their electorate. It's depressing.
Why do you still support Trump even after all these indictments and even after he claimed the big lie that he lost the election which caused people to attack the Capitol? If he is convicted in any of these indictments will you stop supporting him?
And why not support one of these other candidates who don’t have so many criminal charges having over their head? What’s wrong with Chris Christie? Isn’t he a smarter, more moral man than Trump who would be a much better president?
And honestly, I don’t see you as a “Trump supporter.” Trump supporters are out there loudly constantly promoting their man and casting out others who don’t agree with them. I fear you would have ended our friendship long ago if you were indeed a passionate, dyed in the wool trump supporter.
I believe the indictments are political theatre. Democrat politicians have been challenging and denying election results for years, and they have every right to do so. When supporters of Hillary Clinton rioted in DC on the day of Trump's inauguration, I didn't hold her responsible for that violence. Trump's closing words were to march peacefully and patriotically. And whatever abusive, dimwitted Trump supporters exist, they don't represent or are the majority of his support. Boorish, violent folks exist in all walks of political life. I agree, tribalism is the default position for humans.
But of the two political parties, republicans have tried, though imperfectly, to bust through tribal thinking, while the democrats retain tribal identity as their de facto position. For example, Joe Biden telling an interviewer in 2019 that if he wasn't a democrat he wasn't black, or telling a group of successful black businessmen in 2012 that if the republicans won they'd put blacks back in chains. A disgusting remark made by one of the most corrupt politicians of the last fifty years.
And challenging/denying election results is NOT AT ALL the same thing that Trump did. Please Fred, you are a smart decent man. Look at the facts in the indictments and actually read them for yourself. This isn’t at all Al Gore calling for recounts in Florida. This was a genuine criminal conspiracy theory to stop the lawful certifying or an election.
If the GOP had not gone totally tribalist (which populist nationalism is) instead of genuinely issue-based and principled (what Reagan/Buckley libertarian-conservatism was before Trump killed it) then I would still be in the party.
Perhaps you have to ask yourself, Fred: which really changed from 2015-2023 politically, me or the GOP? I still hold views very similar as I did in 2015, particularly on foreign policy, which has always been my primary focus. But I now no longer feel welcome in a GOP obsessed with very tribalist issues like fears of CRT and trans people. Those are culture war tribalist signaling concerns, not broader genuine issues like the threat of Islamist terror - my main reason for being a conservative Republican - was a decade ago.
They aren’t theatre at all, Fred. If he is convicted will that change your mind at all?
I doubt it would. But I’ll look at the evidence from both sides. I’m sure the defense and prosecutors will bring forth new evidence, new arguments that none of us have an inkling of. Also, I’ll be watching Dershowitz and Turley. Neither have been Trump supporters but both make the best cogent arguments on the law, even when I don’t always agree with them.
Wait a second, if Trump is convicted in one of these cases by a jury of his peers then you would still plan on voting for him? If he has to campaign from prison then you would still regard him as the very best man for you to vote for? Why? There are so many other potential candidates running. And as terrible as Joe Biden is, he's really not as bad as a man who would be convicted of something like leading a conspiracy to steal an election or who illegally stole classified documents?
I mean come on Fred, it's one thing to believe that the prosecutions are politically-motivated, but you're going to believe that the jurors looking at the evidence who convict him are all politically motivated too and that therefore everyone who likes Trump now should just keep liking and supporting him?
Let’s wait and see how it unfolds.
I'm glad you still have an open mind! :)
Always! I’m glad we can have an open exchange of ideas.
And you see, Fred, - that open-mindness I known so well you have from getting to know you over the years - that's why I don't see you as a real, authentic "Trump Supporter." I see you simply as a conservative choosing to vote for Trump at the moment for various ideological reasons. And that is something that we can have reasonable, friendly discussions and disagreements about. It's the close-minded hardcore people on both sides - yes, including the extreme left anti-Trump side also - that are the problem.
Reasonable people can still have reasonable discussions and remain friends and professional colleagues.
Hi David and Sally, I hope you are both safe and dry from the current storm hitting California. I just finished your your recent podcast and do find it baffling. I'm a big Trump supporter along with many family and friends and I did not recognize the caricature.
The projection of a tribal, simple-minded group of white people attracted to a criminal sounds silly from my own experience, reading and research. Tribalism--All for the tribe and screw everyone else--is a distinctly Democrat tradition, owing to the fact that the democrats are the party of American slavery and are as racist and skin conscious today as they were at the start of the Civil War.
Thanks for starting the discussion.
The Democratic Party has a shameful history. The Republican Party historically were the better party. There used to be large contingents of liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats. Things change, political parties change.
The truth is that the Republicans have been on a downward trend ever since they abandoned reconstruction in the South in the late 1800s. Yet even then they were better than their opposition.
Political Parties are about forming coalitions and getting votes to win elections, they are not really about standing up for what is right or wrong. Politicians have to navigate that reality. I am not saying the Democrats are incapable of the same maneuvering to win elections but the Republican Party has quite frankly in recent years decided to go in a direction that is quite cowardly. They are trapped by Trump and his populism, his apparent criminality. It's quite frankly disgusting how many cowards there are in the Republican Party enabling Trump and their electorate. It's depressing.
Why do you still support Trump even after all these indictments and even after he claimed the big lie that he lost the election which caused people to attack the Capitol? If he is convicted in any of these indictments will you stop supporting him?
And why not support one of these other candidates who don’t have so many criminal charges having over their head? What’s wrong with Chris Christie? Isn’t he a smarter, more moral man than Trump who would be a much better president?
And honestly, I don’t see you as a “Trump supporter.” Trump supporters are out there loudly constantly promoting their man and casting out others who don’t agree with them. I fear you would have ended our friendship long ago if you were indeed a passionate, dyed in the wool trump supporter.
I believe the indictments are political theatre. Democrat politicians have been challenging and denying election results for years, and they have every right to do so. When supporters of Hillary Clinton rioted in DC on the day of Trump's inauguration, I didn't hold her responsible for that violence. Trump's closing words were to march peacefully and patriotically. And whatever abusive, dimwitted Trump supporters exist, they don't represent or are the majority of his support. Boorish, violent folks exist in all walks of political life. I agree, tribalism is the default position for humans.
But of the two political parties, republicans have tried, though imperfectly, to bust through tribal thinking, while the democrats retain tribal identity as their de facto position. For example, Joe Biden telling an interviewer in 2019 that if he wasn't a democrat he wasn't black, or telling a group of successful black businessmen in 2012 that if the republicans won they'd put blacks back in chains. A disgusting remark made by one of the most corrupt politicians of the last fifty years.
And challenging/denying election results is NOT AT ALL the same thing that Trump did. Please Fred, you are a smart decent man. Look at the facts in the indictments and actually read them for yourself. This isn’t at all Al Gore calling for recounts in Florida. This was a genuine criminal conspiracy theory to stop the lawful certifying or an election.
If the GOP had not gone totally tribalist (which populist nationalism is) instead of genuinely issue-based and principled (what Reagan/Buckley libertarian-conservatism was before Trump killed it) then I would still be in the party.
Perhaps you have to ask yourself, Fred: which really changed from 2015-2023 politically, me or the GOP? I still hold views very similar as I did in 2015, particularly on foreign policy, which has always been my primary focus. But I now no longer feel welcome in a GOP obsessed with very tribalist issues like fears of CRT and trans people. Those are culture war tribalist signaling concerns, not broader genuine issues like the threat of Islamist terror - my main reason for being a conservative Republican - was a decade ago.
Tribalism is a distinctly everyone problem, Fred. Everyone can fall into it, including Republicans and conservatives.